How to Redesign Your Website Without Killing Your Conversion Rate

Raphael Paulin-Daigle is the CEO of SplitBase, an ecommerce conversion optimization agency for fashion, luxury, and lifestyle brands. SplitBase combines rigorous customer research with A/B and AI testing to enable long-term growth for DTC luxury brands. As the only conversion optimization agency specializing in luxury and fashion, Raphael and his team have generated revenues of over $1 million for famous brands like Kiehl's by L'Oréal and boosted conversions by double digits for many DTC brands like DIFF Eyewear and Dr. Squatch.

Before founding SplitBase, Raphael led special projects at Blockstream and was a digital marketing consultant. He also hosts the Minds of Ecommerce podcast, where he interviews founders and executives of highly successful brands on their top growth strategies.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

• Raphael Paulin Daigle shares insights on redesigning ecommerce websites using the conversion design approach
• Identifying your goal and approach for redesign
• Potential risks of website design and how to mitigate them
• Conversion design process versus traditional approach in boosting conversions
• Website redesign approach using conversion design: a detailed guide
• The importance of testing and experimentation in web design

In this episode…

Every website will require a redesign at some point. Website redesign is a powerful tool for improving brand identity, performance, the user experience, SEO visibility, and driving more traffic. However, while upgrading your site has numerous benefits, this process can be risky. What are the potential pitfalls of introducing major changes to your website, and how can you mitigate them?

According to ecommerce conversion expert Raphael Paulin-Daigle, a complete redesign of your ecommerce site means risking it all. Over his 12 years in conversion optimization, Raphael has witnessed website redesigns fail too often, resulting in decreased search rankings, engagement, traffic, and conversions — despite looking 1,000 times better. To help his clients avert conversion decline when redesigning, Raphael advocates using conversion design as an alternative to the traditional process. You can incrementally improve performance and sales by taking an evolutionary approach to redesign through testing and releasing new design elements over time instead of everything at once. Now Raphael unpacks the strategy behind the conversion design process, offering case studies and a detailed guide to redesigning ecommerce websites without harming conversion rates.

In this authority episode of the Minds of Ecommerce podcast, host Raphael Paulin-Daigle provides a deep dive into how to redesign your ecommerce website without killing the conversion rate. Raphael explains the disadvantages of traditional design processes and common mistakes. He also highlights the importance of identifying your design goals, testing and experimenting design elements, and proven strategies for enhancing conversions in both traditional and conversion design approaches.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Raphael Paulin-Daigle on LinkedIn | X
• SplitBase
• “How Laundry Sauce Scaled to Eight Figures Without Employees” with Ian Blair on the Minds of Ecommerce

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by SplitBase.

At SplitBase, we design, test, and manage high-converting landing pages and on-site experiences for fashion, luxury, and lifestyle e-commerce brands. Our optimization program pinpoints exactly where your store is losing money most, and then we help you fix that.

The result? Increased conversions and profits for our clients.

With our team of conversion optimization specialists, performance marketers, and conversion-focused designers, we've got your back when it comes to testing and optimization.

Request a proposal on SplitBase.com today, and learn how we can help you get the most out of your marketing spend.

You can find us on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. Don’t miss out on our exclusive podcasts at Minds of Ecommerce.

Episode Transcript

Raphael Paulin-Daigle  0:06

Welcome to the Minds of Ecommerce podcast, where you'll learn one key strategy that made leading ecommerce companies grow exponentially. We cut the bullshit and keep the meat in a 15-minute episode, founders and executives take us through a deep dive into a strategy, so you'll get to learn and grow your online sales. In the last episode, you heard from Ian Blair, who is the founder and CEO of Laundry Sauce. We've talked about how they've scaled superfast in two years with paid media and no employees. So just agencies, super interesting conversation, definitely listen to it. And let me know what you think. Now today on episode number 38, we're gonna do something a little different, because today's gonna be my first solo episode, and we're gonna talk about how to redesign your ecommerce website without killing your conversion rate using the conversion design approach. I'm your host, Raphael Paulin-Daigle and I'm the founder of SplitBase. This is Minds of Ecommerce. Now this episode is brought to you by SplitBase. At foot base, we help leading direct to consumer brands such as Dr. Squatch, HyperIce, and Amica AB test, design, build, and manage high-converting landing pages and on-site experiences, we generate a combined 100 million dollars in additional revenue for our clients every single year, our optimization programs pinpoints exactly where your store is losing money most. And then we help you fix it. The result? Well, you get increased conversion and increase AOV and of course, increased marketing efficiency. So if you want to scale your brand profitably, we're the ones to call and you can do so by requesting a proposal on splitbase.com today, and you'll get to learn how we can help you get the most out of your marketing spend. Website redesigns can be risky. Now I've been doing conversion optimization for about 12 years now. And I've seen my fair share of websites that looked 1000 times better, got released, and unfortunately completely flopped. It was just about a year ago, actually that we had a brand a direct-to-consumer ecommerce brand, who came to us in the middle or actually towards the end, I should say, of their website redesign process. What happened is they went through this traditional redesign process of you know, working with a design agency getting any website built, and then releasing it. And believe me, that new website looked a lot better than the one they had. But then as they released it, conversions completely tanked. And it led to some pretty nasty performance metrics on their end, or talking about conversion rates going so low that they had to go through a round of layoffs. And now that is one extreme example. But when your entire business is on the internet, and it's a website, right? Well, if you're doing a complete drastic redesign, well, that means you're kind of risking it, all right, because you are choosing to completely redo everything, potentially without really knowing if it's going to perform better than the one you've had for maybe years. So in today's video, I will walk you through a slightly different approach than most brands employ when it comes to doing a redesign. And I'm going to talk about how to redesign your website without killing your conversion rate. This approach is called the conversion design approach. And there's a couple different ways of applying it. Now our clients that employ that the conversion redesign approach, generally haven't seen conversion declines, they were able to redesign their entire websites, and actually increase conversions over time. Some of our clients that's gone through multiple redesigns, such as Diff Eyewear, I can even think of Dr. Squatch, and many more. But those are the published case studies that I'm allowed to talk about. They went through multiple redesigns but following a conversion design approach saw pretty much no dip in performance over time. So big plus on that end, and that's probably one of the reasons why you'll want to follow what I'm going to walk you through instead of taking a traditional approach. Now, let's dive in. Let's first identify the different approaches should you pursue a traditional design approach or should you follow the conversion design approach? Now? Yes, they there are some situations where the traditional approach might be totally fine and you don't need to follow the conversion approach. But let's look at both approaches, let's identify your goal for your redesign. And then we're going to look at the differences between the traditional and the conversion design approaches. So, first step number one that we'll want to go over is which approach should you pick? Well, the first question is, are you redesigning an existing ecommerce website? Right? If you're not a brand new brand, and you are a website that's already successful, you're getting sales through that website? So yes, you are redesigning an existing e commerce website? Well, then I'll ask you, is your conversion rate AOV and overall sales performance important to you? Right? If it is, and you want to maintain your current performance? Or do better? Well, then the answer is simple. You have to follow the conversion design approach. Now, to my question, are you redesigning an existing ecommerce website? If your answer is no, in that case, and that means maybe you're building a brand new brand, you don't have existing data, you don't yet have any sales, right? That means you don't really have much data to, you know, create or to use in order to follow the conversion approach. So you know, in this case, the traditional web design approach is going to be totally fine. Now, obviously, there's probably good ways and bad ways of doing it. Just like any approach, there's always nuances and details. But in general, right, the traditional design approach is fine. If you're just starting out. Alright, well, now let's say you said yes to your conversion rate, ao V and KPIs being important, and you either want to improve performance or at least maintain what you currently have. Well, then, as I said, you'll want to follow the conversion design approach, there's a couple different ways of doing the conversion design approach, right? Are you going to do it following the evolutionary method of implementation? Or are you going to do a full-site release Both could you know, both have pros and cons, and we're going to talk about that. But first, you really need to be clear about what you're trying to achieve with your site redesign. And this is something that I've noticed many, many times over the years. And sometimes while brands really want to redesign, but the goals are not clear, or you know, sometimes it's just because they're kind of bored with the current website. So in that case, should you really redesign? And if so, how do you do it without risking, you know, without betting the house? So let's look at a couple of different goals that you may have in mind for your redesign. And, then let's discuss the best approach. So let's say your goal is to go through a full brand update, right? So your brand is changing the logo, changing the visuals, maybe changing the targeting, changing your copy, changing how you present yourself, right? We're talking about a full rebrand, not just you know, a rebrand, where updating your font is fine or updating your logo, it's fine, you really need a full site refresh. Because what you have now does not reflect who you are as a brand, who you're targeting as a brand, the products you're releasing, and so on. In that case, I understand that you may not have a choice, and you're left with one option, and that is to do a full website redesign. So if that is the case, well, there's a couple of things you want to keep in mind, you may want to go through the entire website redesign process. And then once the website is fully approved and designed, you'll go ahead and you'll just completely release it. In this case, right? A full website release is justifiable because you don't really have the choice. Now, it does come with its risks, right? Because if we're completely redesigning everything, and we're changing the user experience, there's nothing that guarantees that this new website is going to perform better than the old. So what can we do? Well, we can use the conversion design approach to minimize the risks, right? So I'm going to talk about the conversion design approach and exactly how it works in a couple of seconds, or in a minute or two. But you definitely want to do everything you can to minimize the risks because if you're updating the brand, you have a new website, but then your conversion rates, you know, are cut in half and they take you know, it might you might end up being put in an awkward situation that it's best to be avoided, especially if you still need to make money. Now, if your goal if goal of your redesign is to improve performance and your KPIs, you want to increase conversion rate, you feel like a new website would improve the performance and would increase your sales. Well then, here's what I would recommend. Do not do a full website release. So when the designs are ready, don't just you know publish To a new website right away, and then expect that the new website will perform better. Again, I've seen my fair share of brands and clients that over time, you know, they did that thinking would be so much better. The website, they got looked 1000 times better the copy, you know, it matched best practices so much more, everything looked better on every level, yet they did that release, and then turns out performance did not improve or even worse, taint. And I'm sure you could talk to any conversion optimization, agency owner, or anyone that's worked in this space for a while, and they all have their stories. So in this case, if your goal is actually to improve, you know, your performance and you want to make more money, well then follow the approach that actually makes sure you don't lose money, and you know, so that you don't fall behind even further. So here, you'll want to follow the evolutionary approach, which means that you'll be testing different elements over time, slowly getting you to a brand new website experience that, yes, looks better. And that also increases your sales. Now, if you're redesigning, because you're kind of bored of your existing website, and it's been a long time since the last one, well, then I'll actually ask you, is this really a valid reason for a redesign? Right? Um, are you willing to risk performance with a brand new website that doesn't come with any guarantee that is going to perform better, you know, just because you're kind of bored of the existing one, right. Now, if for whatever reason, you still really need to move forward with that website and that new website, well, then again, minimize your risks, make sure that you've got like that insurance policy, that's gonna make sure that your design process actually increases your conversion and doesn't decrease them. Now, if you have a website that's fundamentally broken, right, like the website experiences absolutely, absolutely terrible. It's built on outdated standards, nothing makes sense. And there's really no way to like, save it or tweak it or slowly improve it, it really needs to be redone from scratch. Again, in this case, a full release of the website is justifiable once you get your design files. But again, follow the conversion design approach that utilizes research and data instead of gut feelings in order to build design, that will likely increase your conversions. And finally, maybe another reason for you to redesign your website is because you're re-platforming to a new ecommerce platform, and you want to take this opportunity to just improve the website, again, well, re-platforming is one thing, redesigning is another thing, it's not because your re-platforming, that you need to redo everything. If you decide to redesign at the same time, yes, it's going to cost more. And but again, you're also opening up that can of worms of maybe that new website isn't going to perform better, right. And that's not going to be the platform's fault, that's going to be because you did a redesign that likely wasn't necessary. And if it wasn't done the right way, it could also tank performance. So here, I would actually advise based on our experience that you consider building the same website on the other platform, anything, obviously, that's obvious, big issue or mistake, you know, you don't need to recreate it on this new platform, right? There's a couple things that maybe you choose not to include, maybe there's a couple new things, but in general page styles, templates and everything. You know, keep it and if you do you need to redesign a redesigning it go through an evolutionary approach that aims to release things over time, instead of just releasing everything in one go. So based on this now, you should know if you should follow a conversion design process in order to redesign your website, or if you should follow the traditional web design approach. And on top of that, now, you should also know if you should do a full website release once the designs are done and ready, or if you should follow the evolutionary approach of releasing a new design. Now, breath, what are the traditional the differences between the traditional and the conversion design process? That's probably what you're asking me. And I'm going to walk you through this rather quickly. But, you know, you'll see that there are some pretty big differences. And you'll also see that one of them seems much shorter, but the one that seems longer, which is the conversion design process might actually be way shorter than the traditional approach. Let's dive in. So in the traditional web design process, what's going to happen? Well, you're going to gather requirements, create a design brief, everybody's going to meet to have, you know, a brainstorming mood board right going to find inspiration around the internet of what we want, what we don't want, then it's going to move to design for wireframing. And maybe at the same time, or maybe before, right copywriting and content creation is going to be happening. And finally, once everybody's happy with everything, obviously that process can take a while depending on how many people are involved, we get to the final design. Once the design is approved. Well then The website is developed and coded, and then it launches, bam. So very straightforward approach. Once the website is launched, hopefully then there's an extra stage where, you know, there's some conversion optimization happening. And you're looking at the data hoping to make improvements and overtime improvements are made. But in general, you know, the traditional web design process, I think most people are familiar with it. Now, what are the cons? What are the issues with this? Well, here's the deal. The traditional web design process takes a lot of assumptions under consideration, right? So when you're brainstorming with a team, when you're looking at competitors, right, well, here's the deal competitors might be doing a lot of things that are cool on their website that you may inspire yourself with. But you know, very often, what you don't realize is competitors have no idea what they're doing either. And they're also looking at their competitors to see what they're doing. And a lot of times, right, like, I've seen fortune 500, companies, you know, just doing things based on gut feelings, if you're copying them, you know, they may not actually be doing what's best there. They might also be a be testing things. So are you going to be copying something that might be the worst performing test for them? It's highly possible, right. And that's what happens in this very opinion and gut feeling type driven process. It's very much let's look at what's done out there. Let's look at what we want. Let's look at what we think our customer personas are, right? Generally, design agencies are going to have this process of building customer personas. But it's not done using surveys and a lot of research. It's really based just on demographic research, like how old are they? What are their jobs and everything. And then they're kind of made up. And you know, we have like, Adrian is this construction worker, and so on. And then those stories are built. But again, that's like storytelling and opinion style stuff. It's not based on hard and cold facts and data most of the time. And then what happens is you spend tons of resources and time building this design, the copy the wireframes, coding something that yes, may look better to the eye that based on opinions, and based on gut feelings feel better feels like it's more satisfying. But since it's not rooted deep in data, facts, based on what's already working, and what's not working, you're again, betting the house, right? Meaning that you're risking your entire ecommerce business, you know, assuming that whatever's going to be built in released is going to perform better, or at least not worse than what's been released before. But as I said earlier, I've seen many, many, many examples of brands that thought this way went through the entire traditional web design process that could last anywhere from three months to a year or more, and then just release the website and having to revert back to their old design after that, right. That is an extremely disappointing outcome if you spent so much time and money on the traditional website process. So that is, you know, obviously, the downsides of it. Now, if you remember, I also said that this is a pro, this is an approach that works for some brands, right? Like if you're a new brand, if you're a brand new product. And the reason for this is because you don't really have a lot of data to base yourself on. So you have to make some assumptions. And those those assumptions, those assumptions will have to be proven wrong or validated at least over time after the launch, and it can't really be done in. So now, obviously, well, if you've listened to this video, from the beginning, you know that the conversion design approach is the way to go for a new site design the site redesign in most cases. So how does it vary? And how does it differ from the traditional approach? Well, let's look at this. The first stages are going to be very similar, right? Obviously, you need to gather requirements, create a brief understand what you need, what needs to change, and so on, you're probably still going to want to have some inspiration if this design is to change quite a bit visually, right? Especially if you're going through a rebranding while you'll have to determine what you want the website to look like regardless. And obviously that creative exercise is not something that's super rooted in data, nor does it have to be right but you have to determine what does the website what is it going to look like visual now. This is where it changes instead of diving headfirst in the wireframing stage in the copywriting stage in the content creation stage. And in the final design stage, you're gonna fall instead in a stage that we call the conversion research stage. And the goal of the conversion research stage is to identify what's working, what's not working, what to keep in this new website, and what to remove from this new website without relying on gut feelings. have personal opinions or assumptions? So what's the conversion research like? Well, it's primarily two things. It's a mix of quantitative research and human research, which is technically qualitative research, you'll actually start with the quantitative research. And that is with an analytics analysis. This is where you actually have conversion strategist. Before doing the redesign, they go through your data, the data of your existing website, and they try to understand what's working with this website, what's not working, what are the most important pages, which actions are elements that people are clicking on, that leads to a higher conversion rate, or that leads to a higher or to leads to more purchasers? Right. And the goal is to identify ultimately, again, what's working and what's not working, and what are the patterns, behaviors, elements, that actually leads to higher conversion rate as well, that can take some time. But that will also help you determine what's important and what's not. The next step then is to go a little deeper, right? You will look at the pages that are the most important that you've identified through the analytics. And you'll want to follow you'll want to look at heat maps, you'll want to look at heat maps and see how are people interacting with it? What are people clicking on? How far are people scrolling? Right? These are behavioral analytics, of course, that helps you better understand how people are navigating and utilizing your website. Again, this can help you answer your questions of, you know, what are people clicking on? What are they utilizing, and maybe what are they are people not paying attention to. And then this is a bit of an optional step. But this is one that we like to take during the research process. But it's actually a B testing, right? Obviously, a B testing is core to the evolutionary method of deploying a new website, which we're going to talk about in a second. But you know, you can also a be test to learn. And that means that as you're learning, let's say you're trying to determine what's the best message, what's the best marketing angle, or what's the best, you know, way of designing or displaying certain element right before going with going on and moving forward with your full site design, right, you can weave in a B testing to determine you know, the elements to select or to choose or to move forward with in this new design. So very, very important step. Regardless, the next step, and a be testing, you know, might be done after the qualitative step, or at the same time, I probably should have changed how it looks like your but ultimately, surveys and polls, right, you'll actually want to survey your customers, you'll want to run polls. And you'll also want to, you know, this should be qualitative. I'm not talking about quantitative research with multiple choice answers, yes or no, I'm really talking about questions like, what can you tell us about yourself? What made you buy from brand? What's going on in your life that made you buy this product? Which other products? Have you looked like? What do you like or dislike about shopping for beauty products online, right, all sorts of questions that are fully open ended. And that will help you better understand your customers, their needs, their motivations, their questions. Those are types of surveys that you should conduct to existing customers, post purchase surveys, but also polls throughout the website to people who haven't bought from you yet. Now, this again, will help you understand motivations, questions, needs, wants, concerns, doubts, things to avoid in the copy of your website, the next step you it is optional, but I highly recommend it at times, right? It is, you know the customer interview step right? Talk to customers see what they like what they dislike about the website, but also just about the brand in general, you want to get insights, again, that comes directly from the customers. So you're not assuming what the customer thinks. You can also dive deeper by doing review mining, so doing an analysis of how people talk and express themselves in the product review section. But you can do the same with chat logs in customer support tickets. That's a great way to understand the most common questions and what needs to be addressed in a new website. Now session recordings looking at how people navigate through the website, but also usability research and testing. Right? So this is, you know, looking at people navigate through the website, asking them questions, those are all things that can help you better understand what needs to stay and what needs to go in this new website, the conversion research approach will lead you to a very clear, it'll pretty much give you the answer of what needs to be on this new website and what doesn't need to be on this website. So over are the debates of oh, we need to have this or we need to have that or should we do this or should we not do that? Right? The conversion research actually gives you a really clear roadmap and it pretty much creates the wireframes for you. It pretty much tells you what to write the words to use right on this new website. It does most of the work and that's why this process is so important and so magical. Now as you start writing, copy creating content, shooting new images, creating graphics and so on. Right you may They want at least for the copy side of things, you may want to do some copy testing and see how the copy how the audience relates with the copy. That's one part. Once you move into the wireframing stage, you may want to run through some of your wireframes through usability testing. And then once you move into the design stage, same thing, you may or may not want to run some of your designs, through the through usability testing, the whole point of doing copy testing and usability testing is to get as much validation as possible. Before spending time developing our design website and actually releasing something right. Again, we want to remove as many assumptions as possible and build something that's based on facts that this is going to work as much as possible. Now, once you've done this, it's finally time to develop the website and code it right. And obviously, that takes a lot of time. So it takes a lot of time and effort. So do you really want to build things that shouldn't be on your website? Do you really want to spend time building things that's actually going to decrease your conversion rate? Probably not. And that's why the conversion research process is so important, because it's going to help you determine what those things are before, you know, having to code them. Now, you probably have figma files ready, you have your design, you have all your copy, you have all the images. So finally, you have to pick how are you going to release the website? Are you going to just publish your new theme, at least if it's a Shopify site? Are you just going to publish a new design all at once replacing your current website, which is a full release? Or are you going to do the evolutionary approach, which, you know, will be a mix of releasing some things immediately, and testing bigger things, right. So in the previous couple of minutes, I walked you through different goals you might have for your website, and which approach you should take. So again, follow the approach that I indicated based on your goals. Now, let's say you want to do a full release, what's going to happen? Well, again, you're going to do a full website launch, and then obviously, QA, all of that is going to be very important, making sure everything is being tracked is going to be very important. And then you're going to have to make sure that again, you know, you can't just assume the website is done and over with your conversion rate, unless it's 100%, right can always be improved. So you need to look, then you need to make sure everything is tracked properly, you need to make sure that you have a testing process and a pipe testing pipeline built, and you need to make sure you have a plan for optimizing. So you can there is a risk here, again, with full release that your website doesn't perform as well as your old one, even if it looks much better. That's something you just have to assume and be okay with. If that happens, you also need to be ready to potentially revert to your old website if the decrease is really bad. But you know, hopefully, if you follow the conversion design approach, that should not really happen, because we've taken preliminary steps and enough steps to ensure that we don't have such a decrease, but there's always a possibility, right. So that's now if you follow the evolutionary method, it's much, much, much safer. But you know, you won't get to just cut the ribbon and have a brand new website all at once. Some things are going to be implemented right away. But you know, like testing your whole PDPs, that should be done before they're released, testing, you know, so testing new page templates, like the collection pages, if you're if you've redesigned all of that, test them. And then, you know, with one of our clients, we're talking here about, you know, a pretty large grant $100 million grant and what we discovered at one point, they redesigned their product pages, they look so much better. And you know, we thought obviously, this is going to work. They released while they tested, which is the whole point of the evolutionary methodology. They tested the new design of the their product pages versus their old product pages. And they actually discovered that these new product pages that Yes, look better, actually would have cost them hundreds of 1000s of dollars in lost revenue per month. Now, that did not mean that they just had to scrap the brand new product page design. That's not the point of the evolutionary approach. What that signaled was that at this point, they simply have to go one step backward and look at okay, what assumptions have we made about the product pages? Or what are the biggest changes that we've made? And then we created an experimentation pipeline for that page in particular. So now, since it didn't work right off the bat, well, we're going to have to look at the various elements of that product page. And we're going to have to, you know, test some of those and figure out exactly what part of that new design is working and what parts aren't working. It sounds like it's gonna take a lot more time. Yes, like, if that's what you're thinking I agree, it probably takes more time than if you just do a full release. However, right? Imagine you do a full release, you launch a website, you just launch that new PDP, and bam, your sales starts decreasing. You don't even know why you didn't even you weren't even able to identify that was the PDP that was the culprit? Well, now to find the problem is going to take a long time to find, you know how to redo that you're gonna have to do all the research again. So that is the problem with the traditional approach, or even, you know, to some extent, doing a full release when you shouldn't, right, it's that the process looks shorter. Yes, you get that hit of dopamine from a new website that looks so much better, pretty much, you know, right away and way sooner. But the truth is that, you know, if you're, if you don't win the lottery, and it doesn't increase your conversion rate right away, which is, for most brands that does it, right, well, you're just gonna have to go backwards and do the conversion research to understand why it's not increasing your conversions and what needs to be different. And ultimately, you know, you end up doing the the conversion design approach, but after everything has been designed and coded, and it's going to cost a lot more money take a lot more time, it's going to be a lot more back and forth, and you're going to be losing money in the process. So this is why the conversion research approach while it may take a little longer, it may cost a little bit more upfront, actually saves you money helps you make more money, and ends up being faster in order to increase your sales than following any type of traditional approach. So this is how you redesign your ecommerce website without killing your conversion rate. In an ideal world, you follow the conversion design approach. And then once your designs are ready, you follow the evolutionary approach that minimizes risks and make sure that what does the which designs are releasing are actually helping you keep your existing performance or obviously, as we hope increase your performance. If you have any questions, obviously, you can tweet me at our pollen Daigle, you can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. Or, obviously, you can go to splitbase.com To learn more about how we can help your brand with the conversion research approach, or with landing pages or conversion optimization. And obviously, I'm always happy to help. Hope that was helpful. All right. Well, that's it for today's episode. And thank you so much for tuning in. Now, if you like what you've heard, and you don't want to miss any of the new episodes that are about to come out, make sure you subscribe to the podcast. And well bonus points if you also leave a review in the iTunes Store, or wherever you're listening to this. Now, if you're working on an ecommerce Store that has over a million dollars in revenue, and you need help with conversion optimization or landing pages, well, I've got some good news because there's a pretty good chance we can help with that. Go to splitbase.com To learn more, or even to request a proposal. If you have any guest requests, questions, or comments, tweet me @Rpaulindaigle and I'll be super happy to hear from you. And again, thanks again for listening. This is Minds of Ecommerce.

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