How Saatva Mattress Reached $250m+ in Revenue Through Differentiation (with Ricky Joshi)

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Hello and welcome to episode number 19 of the minds of ecommerce podcast, where founders and executives of high growth ecommerce brands share with us their top growth strategies today. I'm super, super excited. We've got Ricky Joshi. He's the co founder of Sadba, a luxury direct to consumer mattress company that was named the 7th fastest growing privately held retailer in America. They're currently doing around $250,000,000 in revenue. So lots of exciting stuff to talk about today. One of the main topics I want to touch on is differentiation, because with thousands of mattress companies in the direct to consumer space, it can be hard to stand out. Thankfully, Ricky is an expert at this, so that's what we're going to talk about today.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
I'm your host, Rafael Paul and Daigle. And I'm the founder of splitbase, a conversion optimization and landing page agency for direct consumer e commerce. This is minds of e Commerce. All right, Ricky, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here.

Ricky Joshi:
Yeah, thanks. Glad to be here.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Sweet. So, as you know, this podcast is really about going deep into some of the most successful growth strategies. And before we get started, I really want to give context to our listeners. Can you tell us a bit more about Sadva and the growth you've been experiencing?

Ricky Joshi:
So, yeah, I mean, so sadva. We're a direct to consumer company. Primarily, our channel is online or phone orders. We also actually have our first brick and mortar location in Manhattan. And we're expanding our brick and mortar strategy. So we're kind of in line, I guess, with a lot of other players in that way. And actually, we found phenomenal success there. We're a luxury mattress company, so unlike probably 174 of our competitors, we actually have white glove delivery, so in home installation, mattress removal, which really allows us to kind of offer, I think, a differentiated product, but we consider ourselves kind of accessible, luxury, and really the predominant winner in that part of the category.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Wicked. Now, with all those thousands of mattress companies out there, what would you say are, like, the few things that really make sutba stand out against the Caspers and purple and all of those?

Ricky Joshi:
So I think at the core, we are a differentiated product in that we have in home installation and removal, which basically is a hard way to do business. Right. So we actually created our own delivery network across the United States. So we actually are managing 155 local delivery partners producing out of 18 factories. So that required a lot of software. We scaled kind of regionally as opposed to just kind of a very quick one factory ups drop ship operation. So that to us, has actually been kind of the biggest moat we could have created as a barrier to entry. It's very difficult to do it the way we're doing it.

Ricky Joshi:
On the other hand, the product is fundamentally different. You really can't stuff any of our products into a box. The spring units can't compress, the gauge is too thick, there's a certain weight limit. Our beds are way too heavy. So because of that, the product, to be honest, kind of stood out. But I think that's only half the story because we could have a differentiated product. However, if we don't know how to send that message to the consumer, we're still just another one of those companies. So what we've really done over time is really with creative kind of gone down the course of being a differentiated kind of player in terms of look and feel.

Ricky Joshi:
So if you look at kind of early on, we were the first ones to kind of put beautiful pictures of our bed in kind of luxurious rooms. And then all of a sudden, everyone else started to do that. And so late in the last couple of years, we actually started taking beautiful shots of our bed kind of in these Mediterranean type environments. So our site just looks really different than everyone else who are kind of telling kind of a very similar story. So I think the product was kind of the first step, then being able to kind of have a differentiated look, feel. When the people see us, they remember us was kind of the second step. And then I think the third step really is being explaining our product really well. We've always felt that we want to be really transparent with our product, and our product, we feel, can stand up to anyone.

Ricky Joshi:
So having objective measures of comparison, really taking people through kind of the process of how the bed is built, why it's a better product, we really get into the details, but I think we explain those details in a very digestible way. So if I had to once again distill it, I think it's having a differentiated product, having differentiated creative so that people remember kind of your brand and then really kind of explaining the product.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Awesome. You've mentioned a lot of differentiating factors, so I kind of want to touch them one by one. But I want to start with the whole white glove delivery service that you're offering. Obviously, that's massively different from just getting a mattress in the box and there you go. It's going to inflate itself and you're done that's. Something that, like you said, logistically is very challenging, yet it makes you extremely different. Is that something that you have decided on from the very beginning as this is who we are, this is what we're doing even as we're starting the company, we're going to go with this differentiating factor because it's incredibly different from the others, or it's something you've added on as you grew and got more expertise to handle those logistics.

Ricky Joshi:
Neither, actually. We were actually the first direct to consumer mattress company kind of trying to play with that model online. So we launched in 2011. Casper kind of came in 2014, right. I think was like 2013. Really? That's kind of the evolution. And we got into the category, to be honest, we never really thought the Bedna box was sort of like a viable mass market product. So I give credit to the guys who kind of came in and kind of made it popular.

Ricky Joshi:
We always felt that it was sort of a gimmicky type of thing. So we actually, for better, for worse, kind of built it the hard way, maybe not knowing any better. And I think in the end, it ended up being kind of a winning strategy.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Got it. That's super interesting. So it didn't actually start as a differentiating factor that you capitalized on. It just organically became something that was different.

Ricky Joshi:
Yeah, 100%. One thing we felt when Casper kind of came in and really kind of went mass market and all of a sudden we saw a bunch of kind of replica companies is that no one's really going to do it our way. It's just so much easier to do the drop ship model than it is to build like an LTL and have national distribution and manage that local shipping that you'd have to be crazy to do it our way.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Sure.

Ricky Joshi:
I will say we were also pretty lucky and fortunate in that we were really an early entrant in our category. So because of know, we had kind of a little bit of time to go regionally and also being a bootstrap company. Right. So there's no pressure. So first we were in the New York area. Then we went into California. Then we went to Chicago. I actually was in our office in Texas.

Ricky Joshi:
So I was founding our office, and we have two offices in New York, one and a Texas one. So I actually wasn't even sleeping on our bed while I was running around marketing it all over the country. I was waiting for a Texas launch for about eight months to a year. But what's interesting though, is as you build the software, as you kind of form those connections, you start to really get good at what you do. Quality assurance. All of a sudden we just saw kind of a rapid explosion in terms of how quickly we were able to ramp up and scale nationally.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
I mean, you do have the benefit of having been there early, but you also have, like you mentioned, a very different product from the others. Now, if we think of the consumer who needs a new mattress, trying to find a mattress in this day and age where you have probably at least one new direct consumer mattress company appearing every single day, can be this world of confusion. How do you manage, you know, your product is different, but I'm sure all your competitors are also saying the same thing. Our product is very different. This is why you should come with us. So how do you manage to communicate to the customer that you truly are different.

Ricky Joshi:
Yeah, to be honest, I think at times it's difficult and so I kind of come back to really differentiated photography. So at least people remember our brand. Right. So looking different, I think is nice. Our product, by the way, looks really good.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Right.

Ricky Joshi:
So we're really proud to show our product. We want you to get an up close. We want you to almost feel the product through kind of the screen. Then I think on top of that, really getting into the details and out of the gate. So at the simplest level we've even had, I think some of our hero images will say we're not a bed in a box. I mean, really straightforward the customer and see why that's important. So we'll go and be proud to go directly into the product, explain the differences. So I think that's one thing I have noticed has been incredibly helpful to our customers is that if you want to find a lot of information and deep dive, we provide that capability.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Awesome. I actually want to open a side note here for people listening. You guys actually created this video that I saw that's on your website where it's literally a couple going to an elevator and at every level they get to see the different options available to them mattress wise. And at the end of the day, when they reach the top, they get to Satva Mattresses Paradise land on this Greek island or something like that. And it's beautiful. And this video to me was marketing Genius, where you've really been able to nail down how different you are from the other competitors in a very visual and emotional way, where you can almost feel how awesome your beds are through this video. So just for anyone listening, it's definitely worth a watch as almost a lesson in marketing for how to explain your differentiating aspects. Let's talk about those differentiating aspects.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
So obviously you're niched a little bit more into the luxury but accessible market compared to being a budget brand. You've also got a few different mattress brands that doesn't go in a box. How do you go about prioritizing which differentiating factor when it comes to your marketing? Because there are so many, you got to pick one. At the end of the day, how do you evaluate what gets customers hooked the most?

Ricky Joshi:
That has been like a seven, eight year question. We have an umbrella, so I think on the umbrella level, we look like luxury, we feel like luxury. Our website, everything from the fonts we use, you're really kind of coming into an immersive experience that feels a little different than everyone else. So that's what we're hoping, that through the viscera elements, you'll kind of start to understand kind of our story. After that, we really try to pinpoint kind of what we think are the most important aspects of a customer's purchase decision. But you know what's interesting? We've tried to kind of create very targeted landing pages for people coming in from different avenues. And that's worked at times. But overall, I think just having a really strong umbrella message at the core has been, I think, probably the biggest benefit.

Ricky Joshi:
And under that, then we kind of maybe get into the details, depending on how you kind of approach the website.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
What is that umbrella messaging at the end of the day? Is it the luxury feel to it?

Ricky Joshi:
Yeah. So what we try to do basically is you're coming into an incredibly luxurious environment and then you see our price point and it's not that much higher than everyone else. So imagine you're going into a car dealership and it's just fountains and looks gorgeous and beautiful. And then you find out the car is only $100 more than the guy down the street, right? And so that's a little bit of what we do too.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
I like it. It's almost like you're price anchoring with the visuals. So people expect it to be more expensive. And then when they see the price, it's like, oh, it's a relief. Turns out it's right in line affordable. That's pretty genius. Now, I'd love to know, let's say we're looking at just the mattress space in general or any other ecommerce companies in the direct consumer space. There are so many copycats.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
What would you say is the process to finding those differentiating factors? Right? So right now you're definitely at a scale level where you reach product market fit for sure, and you're really scaling and doubling down on that messaging. But let's say we go back a little bit around the $10 million mark or $50 million mark where you still really had to nail down that messaging. What was the process for finding what resonated the most with people?

Ricky Joshi:
So, number one, I think figuring out the right price point was huge and understanding sort of what a customer is willing to pay, what type of product would be featured. And it goes actually further than just our mattress products. It also goes with our adjustable frames, it goes with answer items, it goes our headboards. So really trying to, I think, nail down what we find our customers price point is, and doing surveys and trying to figure out exactly willingness to pay and kind of what the right fit is and seeing if we can design luxurious product that's in line with our values, that fits that kind of pricing. So I think that understanding the best offering that's still accessible is always something that I think has always been a critical component to, I think, the success of this business kind of after that, as we kind of go through discovery, I mean, you're right, there's so many different things to focus on. So we have sustainability, I think is something that we do our best. And I think that one thing that we find really resonates is catering to the healthy home. And people who are homeowners, they're buying furniture that they're looking to keep for a long time.

Ricky Joshi:
They're buying a mattress they're looking to keep for a long time. They're buying things that are hopefully long lasting. They're not moving to another place in six months or something. Really providing, I think, healthy home quality product and reasonable price point within kind of what we call accessible luxury, I think has been kind of the core. On top of that, I think under healthy home, there are a couple of different things. One is not being chemically based using sustainable materials. Things like that are always helpful and additive proof points, but they kind of fall under kind of healthy living. Similarly, the technical specs of the bed, I think certain consumers really like to dive in and into those areas.

Ricky Joshi:
But you know, what's interesting is if you go on our website, you can probably gloss straight by it too, if you're not really that interested. For the person that is interested, we actually found, for example, and I'm kind of getting in the weeds, but having kind of a carousel that you could go through if you really wanted to dive deep, but instead of spending five huge sections of our website explaining each individual feature, make a carousel, though. So that person who really wants to dive deep, well, they can go through that experience. But for the other person who's more interested in healthy living or they're more interested in kind of their customer service, they can kind of go right past that if they want or look at it briefly.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
I love it. So it sounds like you've been able to identify what are the needs to your different customer segments and then build a design for your website that has elements that caters to all those types of personas.

Ricky Joshi:
Yeah, and letting that person dive in to whatever area that they want to dive into. That's interesting. As we've gone on, our pages have gotten longer for that reason as well. But also you can kind of click off if you want to dive deeper or scroll through. So things like that definitely awesome.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Do you feel like your product pages are more and more becoming like actual landing pages instead of the more traditional product pages?

Ricky Joshi:
100%. And I think that's a natural evolution, actually, because so many people actually go to our product page first through Google Shopping, through a variety of different access points. So those shopping pages actually are almost sales pages in their own right. And again, I think it's sort of letting the customer who just wants to go at the top and just go click through and buy, well, they can do that. But the customer who lands on that product page and really wants to go and learn more, well, they can go on that product page and learn a lot more beneath that. So you're absolutely correct right in line with that. And I think that that's a winning strategy.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
I love it. I think it's actually something that we've talked about a lot on the podcast in previous episodes, where at the end of the day, your landing pages for your paid traffic is super important. But you also got to think as your product pages, as avenues where customers are going to land on without seeing another type of landing page. You never know where people are going to come from, so you got to give them the information they're looking for. And you mentioned surveys and a bunch of customer research methodologies that can help you get that info. So that's pretty important. Now, we've talked a lot about Sadva. Let's flip as if you were advising an e commerce company who's trying to grow to that level.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
What would be your biggest advice, or maybe three biggest points of advice when it comes to differentiating. If you've got a brand struggling to really find those aspects that makes them unique, what would be your biggest piece of advice?

Ricky Joshi:
It depends. I mean, if your product is actually different, well, then lean in on product. I think leaning in on product is always going to be a winner. If your product isn't that differentiated, lean in on customer service. We have 24/7 customer service and we bend over backwards. We really tout our reviews, that's another element. So I'd actually say tout those sort of elements tout reviews, tout customer service, your press validation, things like that. I think third thing would be, I guess just differentiate by design.

Ricky Joshi:
If you have a cookie cutter website that looks like everyone else, or the imagery that looks like everyone else, well, why should they buy your product versus another one?

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Awesome. Now let's go back and let's think of Satva when it was only at the million to $10 million mark. If you were to go back in time, what would you do differently?

Ricky Joshi:
So I think the biggest thing is we were a little late to the game in terms of PR. So Casper kind of came out there and raised a lot of money and was able to capture just like really large sort of consumer brand recognition very quickly and almost take over a category that we had been in for a few years. On the other hand, I always say that's not necessarily a bad thing. 2014 was probably our biggest growth year in terms of revenue ever, probably because they were spending a lot of money on brand awareness. But I would have done PR, I think, a little earlier in the process. Also, I think we would have maybe we've always tried to make our website as great as possible, but I think in the early days, the one, two, four or $5 million level, I don't know if our images were just not where our today, things like that. I mean, it's just such a different experience at this point. It's beautiful.

Ricky Joshi:
It's changed on the other hand, I think today you have a big edge over 2011 in that you can go and get a shopify store who's big commerce or whomever and still with a templated store look pretty good.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
I love it. That's great advice. And we're almost done. There's one final question that I always love to ask, and especially since you've grown from zero to 250,000,000 pretty quickly, if we look at how businesses grow traditionally, what were some of the biggest marketing challenges that you've had to face growing the brand that isn't related to differentiation?

Ricky Joshi:
I think, number one, just getting brand recognition. I think our name that's another thing is a little more difficult than Casper. So trying to get mass market brand recognition, I think we've had to really almost because of it, we've had to almost be exceptional in other ways, like the video you commented on earlier and our design and kind of our imagery, right. So we're almost overcompensating in some way. So just really kind of defining the brand was something that took a little while, but we were able to, I think, really figure out and I'm so happy with where we are today and I'm hoping it only gets better. I think their challenge would just be in terms of PR, always trying to make sure that it took us a minute to get into the conversation, right? But we were always really good digital marketers, so our revenues were always really high. So we were able to revenues, I think because of our revenue numbers, we're almost hard to ignore. So eventually we were able to kind of become a really pivotal part of the conversation.

Ricky Joshi:
But it took a minute. I think another challenge is just you end up with a lot of copycats and a lot of people saying things that aren't necessarily always true, particularly some of the smaller players that don't have a lot to lose, that have a lot of consumer complaints, but they're touting themselves as the best thing in the world. And there's no real internet police, right? If someone's saying that they're the best thing in the world, wow, we're the most comfortable mattress on earth and it's just a bed in a box. Whatever, it can be difficult to compete with. So again, I think we have to kind of become better and really differentiate it in other ways and explain our differentiation in a really clairvoyant way for people to kind of get to that message.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
I love it, Ricky. That's awesome. I think one of my biggest takeaways from this interview is that when it comes to differentiation, if you're in a super crowded market, just one aspect, like just simply better design is not enough. Just a better product is probably still not enough. Right. It's really about putting a lot of weight on all of your differentiating aspects and really testing those out and always listening to the customer and trying to nail down that messaging.

Ricky Joshi:
Yeah. And also customer service and reviews. We will bend over backwards for a customer. I think one thing if you read our reviews is we'll get a review that will say, hey, I didn't love the mattress. I returned. It wasn't for me, too firm, whatever. But the customer service is amazing. They picked it up the next day, couldn't believe it, answered their phone within 30 seconds.

Ricky Joshi:
So we've just really done everything we can. I mean, we probably have too many customer service representatives. We're willing to do that because we know that we don't want you to ever have to wait for ten minutes to get us on the phone at three in the morning. We don't want you to wait six minutes. We always want to be available for the customer, and we always want every customer to love us, regardless of whether we're the right product. Luckily, we have a pretty low return rate, so I think most people love it, love our product, but for those who don't, I don't think that it's hard to say something bad about the way that we handle our customer service.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Awesome. Ricky, that was awesome. Thank you so much for your time and for this interview. So many golden nuggets. I can't wait to have this live. Any final words or anything that you want to say to our know?

Ricky Joshi:
I think focus on products, focus on customers, reviews, et, you know, offer a great experience and be differentiated in terms of design and then do all the right things when it comes to performance, marketing test often fail fast, experiment. Don't be afraid to try things. I mean, we've iterated our website, like eight or nine times to grow into our current version. And we're always moving, we're never stagnant. I think Ecommerce is fun and exciting, and it's always moving, and we try to move with it.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Thank you so much. Now, if people want to learn more about you or Sadva, where should they go?

Ricky Joshi:
Go to Satva.com, as, you know, a great place to kind of learn about our product. And I guess just Google me.
Find me on LinkedIn as well, and every once in a while I kind of publish something fantastic.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
Thank you so much.

Ricky Joshi:
Thank you.

Raphael Paulin-Daigle:
All right, that's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you'd like to get our Cheat sheet of growth strategies from the top minds of Ecommerce interviewed on the podcast in a summarized, easy to implement format, go to splitbase.com/cheat sheet to download it for free right away. Now, to make sure you don't miss any of the new episodes, subscribe to the podcast. And if you've liked what you've heard, make sure to leave a review in the itunes stores or wherever you listen to your podcast. And finally, if your e commerce store does over a million dollars a year in online sales and you're serious about growing conversions, go to splitbase.com slash assessment to get a free analysis of your website and find out what's the number one action item our conversion experts recommend that you do next to boost conversions. Thanks again for listening.